CCMtg07-10-06WSMinLONGWOOD CITY COMMIS~IOloT
Longwood City Commission Chambers
175 West Warren Avenue
Longwood, :Florida
WOI2I~ SE;~SION
MINU~'~ES
JULY 10, 2006
7:00 P.]VI.
Present: Mayor John C. 'Maingot
Commissioner Mike Holt:
Commissioner H.G. "Butch" Bundy, Jr.
Commissioner Brian D. Sackett
Richard S. Taylor, Jr., City Attorney
John J. Drago, City Adra~inistrator
Sarah M. Mirus, City Clerk
Pat Miller, Director of Community Services
Tom Jackson, Chief of Police
Paul. Sizemore, Community Services Coordinator
Ryan Spinella, Executive Assistant
j~ Absent: Deputy Mayor Dan Anderson (,Excused)
L CALL TO ORDER. Mayor Maingot called the meeting to order at 7:03 p.m.
Commissioner Holt moved to suspend the rules. Seconded by
Commissioner Sackett and carried by a unanimous voice vote. with
Deputy Mayor Anderson absent.
2. BUSINESS.
A. Discussion regarding the Longwood Development Code (LDC) and
Sign Regulations.
Commissioner Bundy said he had two issues, one having been brought up
to the Commission at a meeting regarding real estate offsite .signs that:
were not in the public right-of--way. These signs were located on private
property, but. not the property that. was being sold. He suggested setting a
specific number of signs that would be allowed to be placed on private
property with the owner's permission. He said the other issue would be
Open House signs., He spoke to several realtors regarding this and he
suggested a permit process with a nominal deposit fee of perhaps $50 that
would be refundable. He suggested the signs have a time Timit of Friday
5:00 p.m. to Monday 8:00 a.m. and the City would provide the signs.
CC 07-10-06/167
Mayor Maingot said he had listed several signs that needed to be ~
addressed. They include; .signs For Sale of homes at the. property, at the
entrance of the subdivision, and at another location in the neighborhood
directing potential buyers to the property. He stated those who have homes
that are land locked to the back of subdivisions and only allowed to have
one sign in front of their property per our existing code,, it would be by
luck and chance that anyone looking, for a home would be able to find
these homes. He suggested providing for directional signs. He said control
of clutter and having proper control was very important. In the same
manner, being able to help the City's taxpayers be able to sell their
property was equally significant. He stated he agreed with a permit being
pulled for the sign and placing a validation sticker on the back of the sign
at the. time the permit is issued. He suggested allowing 90 days for the.
signs.
Commissioner Sackett said he heard more complaints from people
regarding garage sale signs being picked up. He inquired if many people.
have come forward saying they were having difficulty selling their homes
because ofthe signs rules or because of the market..
Mayor Maingot stated it was a combination. He commented there were
30;000 homes on the market. He stated people had garage sales all the
time. and there was a need to control clutter. He declared they needed to
see how they could best deal with both issues.
.~'
Commissioner Bundy said if they were going to deal with garage sale
signs at the same time, he had a prototype sign.
Commissioner Sackett stated that there was almost always one of the signs
sitting at the entrance of his subdivision on State Road 434.
Mayor Maingot said the directional signs would only be there from Friday
to Monday.
Commissioner Bundy said the For Sale signs would only be placed on
private property once the permission of the property owner was obtained.
He stated if extending the amount of time of For Sale signs, then they
would need to be on private property. He reiterated the directional signs
for Open House could be smaller signs and would need to be for a
specified time. He said if they allow these and ..garage sale signs to be in
the right-of way, it would not contribute to clutter as they would all be of
a specific design, color, shape, and time. These signs would also be by
permit with a refundable deposit. I=I'e stated there would be no need for a
permit: for the signs placed on private property, only the permission of the
property owner. He said those signs would have a size limit as determined
by the City.
CC 07-10-06/168
Commissioner .Sackett raised the question of how many people actually
obtain garage sale permits. He further stated-the realtors have preprinted
signs that they use. He inquired how yo.u would educate the people.
Commissioner Bundy stated a notice would be sent to the Board of
Realtors and they would educate their members. He said when people see
that certain garage sale signs were: left out and not taken; they would
inquire as to whereto obtain them.
Discussion was held regarding For Sale Signs for homes and Open House
Signs.
Commissioner Holt said Tiberon, Coventry, and Danbury Mill have
community shared signs at the front entry of their subdivision. He
suggested the various information such as House for Sale, or Garage Sale
could be placed in these shared sil;ns. He suggested thinking outside of the
box in regards to signage and the permitting process. He pointed out they
haven't discussed For Rent signs. He said they also needed to address who
within the City was going to be dealing with the signage permitting
process. He stated people. should not be required to go from building to
building for the process and. the process should be uniform throughout the
City.
Mayor Maingot stated people might go by the subdivisions and. never
notice the postings iri the community shared signs.
Commissioner Sackett said people: outside of the subdivision would not be
paying attention to the information in the box. He suggested trying. to
manage with the small Open F[ouse signs and the For Sale or For Rent
signs being on private property... He inquired as to what was the concern of
doing this type of signage differently.
Mayor Maingot said it was a question of controlling clutter.
Commissioner Sackett said he did not want the clutter and he did not want
to make it more difficult for the residents.
Mayor Maingot reiterated suggesting a validation of 90 days for property
For Sale signage to stay on the property. EIe said directional or Open
House signs have a validation for '90 days, but restricted to being posted
on weekends. He said this way they would not have to repeat the
permitting process every weekend.
Commissioner Bundy said they needed to consider a limit on how many
times a permit can be obtained. He said the home many not sell within 90
days.
Discussion ensued.
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Commissioner Sackett said he would recommend a uniform sign, allow ~„~
three signs fora 90 day period for Open. House signs and be time specific.
He stated For Sale signs would be allowed on their own property and one
or two signs on private property.
Commissioner Holt left the meeting at 7:42 p.m. and returned at 7:43 p.m.
Commissioner Holt requested the opinion of City staff.
Mr. Drago said his concern was that somewhere along the line. staff has to
implement the procedure. He stated there could become a problem in
keeping track. of times and a problem with uniformity of signs. He
confirmed he heard it was the Commission's intent to help the residents on
Real Estate signs, Open House signs, and For Rent signs. He
recommended having staff take a look at this. from an implemeritation
perspective and bring back recommendations. He said he would like to see
the sign requirements be made uniform rather than issuing the signs by a
sign deposit. He stated it also would need to be articulated very clearly in.
educating the public on where the signs may be placed.
Mayor Maingot said this was a work in process. He stated they were
holding the Work Session to discuss how to resolve these issues and bring
it forward.
Chief Jackson said Codes Enforcement has been under the Police '~
Department for just over a year. He stated the started with collecting over
800 signs a month and now down to approximately 200 signs being
collected each month. He said this was nothingnew,-there-were always
signs cluttering.the area. He stated, in addition to the two Code Officers,
he also assigned collection of signs. to the Police Officers. He said it was a
maintenance issue and also a traffic issue when people slow down to try to
read the signs. He declared they have worked to educate the public, but
still collect 200 signs a month. He stated they have done an excellent job
of cleaning up the roadway clutter on the exact type of signs they were
Looking to regulate and put back on the roadways. He requested they think
about the maintenance issue concerning what are regulated signs, an
unapproved sign, how long it should be there,. and the traffic problems that
will exist.
Commissioner Holt. said it could be simplified by using the ability to place
signs on public property anywhere. He stated this started by trying to help
residents who want to sell or rent their own property. .
Discussion was held regarding private citizens trying to sell- or rent their
property.
Mr. Taylor stated there should not be any discrimination.
~/
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Chief Jackson suggested. if they were going to accommodate off site
signage to follow a similar rule as currently followed with the garage sale
.signs. He further stated the;g must -have permission from the property
owner whether it is a realtor or private property owner: He.said there may
be 6-7 For Rent or For Sale signs, so they need to consider the clutter.
Mayor Maingot requested.a resident to give his comments.. .
Mr. Tom Redditt, 835 Maraval Court, said he recently had the experience
of trying to sell~~his home arld ran into. this problem of signage. He stated
the typical Open House was held on Sunday fora certain length of time..
He affirmed some people do hold open houses on Saturday and Sunday
afternoons: He Stated ahe signage at the entrance of.the subdivision was a
real problem. He declared if the house is in the back of the subdivision
.... ..then no one would know you are there since a sign:cannot be placed at the
.entrance. He said ~he hoped the City. Commission would find a solution to
this situation. I=Ie stated.he under.~tood the problem;with clutter, but the
turnover of real estate was a benefit to>the City.~He uggested they be very
specific of what. a realtor sign cats be or the City design an attractive sign
.: as they discussed.
Commissioner Holt reiterai:ed the: idea of an informational box for signs at
the front of subdivisions..
~ Mr. Redditt said that sounded go~~d in theory, but there.were some
subdivisions that were very large and other homes were for sell that are
not in a subdivision.. ~~ .. .. ..
Commissioner Sackett said he would prefer to see some uniform City of
.. ~ ~ Longwood signs... ~ ~ .
• ~ ~ Mayor: Maingot concurred.
Commissioner Holt left the meeting at 8:13 p.m. and returned at 8:1.5 p.m.
Commissioner Bundy said if tho:~e signs were not limited to private
property then other businesses would want to place signs in the same
areas. - : ... - . , .
Mr. Redditt said most people hold the open house on Sunday and will
~.. typically place the sign out at not>n and take it up at,5:00 p.tn.
Commissioner Sackett said he would like to limit the larger For Sale signs
to three, one on the. personal property and two others on private property,
then the Open House signs at the entrance.
Commissioner Sackett recapped t~a~e discussion at,thi~ time was specific to
Open House, For Rent, and.. For Sale signs. He said the homeowners can .
CC 0'A-10=06/171
have their own personal signs; they can have two other private property
signs. At the entrance there will be a time specific Open House city
produced .sign: He'inquired if they should allow a.For Sale sign at the
entrance. ~ .. ..
Mayor Maingot said the Open House sign could be placed on top of the
. For Sale sign so there would~not be two- signs:
Commissioner Bundy said that would address ;both the surface streets and
subdivisions. He said it needed to be made. clear this was only addressing
residential properties for sale or. rent..
~~ Commissioner Holt left the meeting. at 8:29 p.m. and returned- at 8:29 p.m.
Commissioner Sackett said the owner would have the large real estate sign
on their own property, but they would not have two additional big signs
somewhere~else, and would be allowed to have two additional yard type
signs on private property.
Mayor Maingot reiterated there would be no signage at the entrances of
subdivisions.
Chief Jackson suggested specifying the size.
Discussion was held regarding sizes. for signage:
Chief Jackson suggested using directional- signs on.private property that
just stated House for Sale.
Mr. Sizemore recapped the direction by the City Commission. He stated
they would allow the one onsite sign with two additional offsite signs only
on private property. There will be signs attached to those signs for open
houses. The base size will be allowed up to 4 squarefeet.
Commissioner Bundy said the attached sign should be limited to 1 .foot by
Z feet.
Commissioner Sackett referred to Section 6.2.0, page 14, regarding
prohibiting pennants, flags, and balloons.
Mr. Drago stated.they could address this when re-crafting the code for real
estate signs.
Mayor Maingot referred to page X12 regarding facade.
Mr. Drago advised not to misintezpret facade relative to signage as
. compared ~to_fagade with the Hattaway issue. ~He stated this would be ~~~
CC 07-10-06/1'72
_ , addressed in the Longwood Development Code at the July 17~' meeting.
~ He said there have been no signs:ge issues relative to facade.
Mayor Maingot said they `~vould move. on to garage sale signs.
Commissioner Bundy said there were a couple of issues with garage sale
signs. He stated a lot of people ace confused with what is and what is not
right-of--way. He reviewed a pro4otype sign that could be used for garage
sale signage obtained from the City. He suggested a deposit for obtaining
the signs and it would be refundf;ci when the signs are returned. He said
the biggest complaint he has had is why the City and Babe Ruth can place
signs in the right-of--way and they cannot. He suggested coming up with a
method to allow utilizing the use: of the right-of--way without creating a lot
of problems.
Mayor Maingot said they determined there would be no signage in the
right-of--ways or at the front entr,3nces for the sell of homes, but for garage
sales it's okay.
Commissioner Bundy said a garage sale sign would be out for a day and a
half, and a real estate sign would. be out for 6 months to a year.
Commissioner Sackett said right-of--way was not defined anywhere in the
~' Longwood Development Code. lie stated how would a resident having a
~• garage sale would know what.a right-of--way is. He inquired how we
would educate people regarding right-af--ways.
Commissioner Bundy suggested we specify behind the sidewalk or.behind
the utility pole if there is no sidewalk.
Mr. Drago suggested asking the City-Clerk what people are told relative to
the right~of--way when obtaining a garage sale permit.
Ms. Minus advised when asked about the right-of--way, residents are told
to contact Codes Enforcement.
Chief Jackson said the Clerk's Office issues the permit for garage sales
and Codes Enforcement is responsible for retracting illegal signs. He said
it would be simplified if there was one stop shopping. He stated he didn't
mind taking on the additional re:,ponsibility so that when the permit is
obtained they .can define where signs can be placed. He suggested it would
be safe to determine the right-of •way could be defined by a specified
number of feet from the edge of the curb or asphalt.
Mayor Maingot said if it would :simplify the situation and save the :follow-
up time lost in manpower, then i'~t would be better to look into.
CC 0'710-06/173
Commissioner Holt suggested it would simplify the .running of City Hall if ~
utilizing permits to one department.
Chief Jackson stated the Code Secretary would be issuing the permit and
. ,..
' ~ " giving the rules from'the people who would be enforcing these rules. He
advised there was another issue similar'to this;with Solicitor Permits.. He
• said because of the background information required, these permits are
now-issued bythe~Police Department.
Commissioner Sackett said Political Signs still go through the.City Clerk.
He•said with one stop shopping, he wouldrather go through the City Clerk
and do the mapping there. He inquired how many garage sale permits
were. issued a week.
Ms. Mirus tated 5-10 garage sale permits were issued per week.
Commissioner Sackett said if they go through the way we have set up and
are shown a map where the right-of--ways are defined it would be done. He
stated he didn't want to send people to all different places.,: .
Commissioner Holt said there was a lot more to the political end where the
Clerk talks with candidates for the variety of issues.
Mayor Maingot said with'the end result,. where would there be greater
efficiency acid better control;' continue with the Clerk's Office, or Codes
Enforcement.
. .. Chief Jackson advised Codes Enforcement pull illegal signs: He stated
there were more illegal.garage sales than those permitted:
., _ ~ ~ Commissioner Bundy said with the protocol signs people would see that
they were not being pulled and only. the illegal signs were being taken. He
suggested over a period of time they would. inquire as to how to go about a
.. garage sale legally.
Commissioner Holt said if the garage sale permits are issued by the Police
Department, they are open extended hours and those who are illegally
holding a garage sale could go to~the Police Department to obtain their
.. .. .. permit:
Commissioner Sackett suggested committing- the garage sale permit to the
•° Clerk. He said he liked the idea of the~universal sign and others would
eventually inquire where to obtain"these.
Chief Jackson suggested a fee for the signs. He said the Code states any
,~ . ~ . , :illegal sign.can be recovered at the actual cost of the City. He suggested if
they .fail to return the signs then they forfeit the deposit.
CC 07-10-06/174
Commissioner Sackett suggested:3 off site signs. ... ~ .
~ ,: ~ .. ..
Chief Jackson strongly suggested including in the def ration the distance
from the roadway in feet when providing the rules.
Ms. Mirus suggested the map would also help in defining that area.
Commissioner Bundy said the Police Department would have more space
to store the signs.
Chief Jackson recommended since the system is in place with the Clerk
issuing the, signs, the first big step would be to come up with a uniform
sign and permission to use it on t:he right-of--way. He said if that system
works out and it doesn't become an issue, then the problem is solved._~He~;
stated if it is still an issue, then they may want-the same routine, but
determine where they want it to ~;o to for clarifying the misdirection. .
. r. ;..~.
. - ..__ ... ..z - ..
Mayor Maingot clarified there would be 1 sign at the~location:arid~2 ji;:-,,~ ._
additional signs for a total of 3 sins. ... ,.::
Commissioner Sackett inquired about the redirection signs to businesses
with the sewer work and how long they would be in place.
~ Mr. Drago advised these signs would be kept in place until the project is
. complete.
Chief Jackson referred to Political Signs, Section 6.6.3E 2 where it
references illegal signs that are recovered. He pointed out this stated the
signs will be held at Public Works for a maximum of 7 days, but they are
typically removed by the Police Department and retained by them. He
advised they notify a candidate their signs have been removed and have
not been stolen. He said there wa;~ access to their impound at all times. He
suggested this language be changed to the Police Department. He also
stated that under 6.8.2 Removal of illegal signs; paragraph D, "If the code
enforcement off cer shall find that any sign regulated under these
regulations is an imminent danger...." at the bottom of this paragraph it
refers to the Building Official shall be notified, .and there was no other
reference to the .Building Official. He said it was the Codes Enforcement
Officer that took action. He suggested this was perhaps a title error and the
Codes Enforcement Officer should notify the property owner. ,
Commissioner Bundy inquired if temporary signs needed any clarification.
Commissioner Holt referenced a sign at the corner of County Road 427
and Church and said this type of signage should not be allowed.
~..~ Commissioner Sackett discussed .limiting overall sizes of signs as well as
the allowable height.
CC 07-10-0~i/175
Mr. Drago said there would'be two issues to consider. He stated they
could establish the uniformity from a date forward, or they could provide a
time frame to=come into. compliance.
Discussion was held regarding uniformity in the overall size of signs.
3. ADJOURN. Mayor Maingot adjourned t~,a mar tins at 9.77 Y1_m_
,, ..,j
ATTEST:
~~ ~-~ .
Sarah 10'I i~Mirus; CMC'
City Clerk
CC 07=1.0-06/176
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