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CCMtg06-11-07WSMinI,Ol>TGVVOOD CITE COMliBISSI01~ Longwood City Commission Chambers 175 West Warren Avenue Longwood, :Florida 1VIIN][JT~ES WORD SL~,S10N JUNK 11, 20.07 7:()0 P.I.VI. Present: Mayor John C. Maingot Deputy Mayor Mike Holt Commissioner H.G. "Butch" Bundy, Jr. Commissioner Dan Anderson Heather Mocre, Acting City Attorney John J. Drago, City Administrator Sarah M. Mirus, City Clerk Paul Sizemore, Interim Director of Community Services Tom Jackson, Police Chief Ryan Spinella, Executive .Assisi:ant ~ Absent: Commissioner Brian D. Sackettt (Excused) '~„~ Teresa S. Roper, Acting City Attorney (Excused) 1. CALF TO ORDER. Mayor Maingot called the meeting. to order at 7:04 p.m. 2. BUSINESS. A. The Community Development ]Division of the Community Services Department recommends the City Commission review and discuss proposed amendments to. the Longwood Development Code, Article VI Signs, and take action the Commission deems appropriate. Mayor Maingot recommended staff be asked to go through the Sign Ordinance as it refers to signs in ;;eneral and leave the garage. sales and real estate signs for last. Commissioner Bundy moved to waive the rules. Seconded by Deputy Mayor Holt and c~~rried by a unanimous voice vote. with Commissioner Sackett ab;~ent. Mr. Sizemore said the best way to proceed would be to go down the list as it appears in the agenda item. He stated all. of the significant changes were listed there as they appear i:n the Ordinance. ~ Mr. Sizemore said the first :item was Abatement and the time period it takes following the adoption of tree ordinance to require all nonconforming CC 06-1.1-0'7/131 signs to come into compliance. He stated the time period selected for compliance was 7 years. He said at the end of the 7 year period a sign u would have exhausted its useful life and this would overcome legal challenges to the abatement section of the code for those property owners not desiring to change their signs at the end of the 7 years. Deputy Mayor Holt said he liked. the wording "....all new or damaged signs will conform to this code... "and then there is a problem if someone just bought a sign and they will need to replace it in 7 years. He stated that means every sign is applicable to this. abatement, including new - businesses. Commissioner Bundy said the time span of 7 years may not be enough time. He gave an example of the Walgreen's sign that is probably a $40,000 - $45,000 sign. He stated there were several commercial projects currently being constructed and their building plans were approved prior to this. He said it would be a sign of good faith if the City notified the property owners. Mr. Sizemore said they like to see the location of free standing signs at the time of site plan submittal to insure they do not conflict with utilities or landscaping. However, that is not the point at which the sign permit is issued. He advised the ,sign permit is usually submitted separately near the completion of the project. He said if this was to be adopted, it would be prior to them getting their sign permits and it would fall under the new ~~ sign code. He stated they advise people of the possibility that a new ordinance could be adopted that would impact their sgnage 7-10 years in the future. Commissioner Bundy ..suggested the developers of the current projects be notified as they often order signage months in advance. Commissioner Anderson said Lake Mary used 7 years as a time frame for signs to conform. He stated recently their .last sign came into conformance and it has made a big difference. Mr. Sizemore said the next item was fairly significant. It adds to the prohibited signs list with the addition of pole signs, neon lighting on signs or buildings, backlit awnings and balloon or inflatable signs. Mayor Maingot inquired if this was prohibiting backlit awnings like Amscott. Mr. Sizemore said the way it is proposed, they would be prohibited. Deputy Mayor Holt inquired, for security reasons, why they were not. allowed. ~' CC 06-11-07/132 Mr., Sizemore said there were options for lighting for security purposes. He said Amscott was a good. example of backlit awnings. He stated they )`-' wanted to have the typical Amscoit awning that. is essentially signage for their property with their corporate colors. The way the palette ordinance is written, the awning is only to be a trim color. He said they came to an arrangement that all of their awnings would be blue with the exception of one on the side that has their logo on it. This arrangement was made because the awning with their logo serves as their building signage.:E-Ie explained this was deducted from the total allowable signage for the building. Commissioner Anderson said he vas all for awning signs and the awnings being backlit. He said this was in keeping with cleaning. up signage and making it attractive. Commissioner Bundy suggested rr~aking them subject to the color palette. Mr. Sizemore advised the 1~inseor: awning matched a color on the palette. Commissioner Anderson sai~3 if using an awning as a sign that counts toward the allowable signagf;, he did not have a problem with it. It was the concurrence of the Commission the area that has the logo be included as part of the permissible signage. Commissioner Bundy inquired if balloon and inflatable signs would not be allowed as temporary signs. Mr. Sizemore said that was the proposed language. Mayor Maingot said the vertical flags were used often. Commissioner Anderson. stated the number of temporary permits was limited. Commissioner Bundy said tYiey could limit the usage., and suggested shortening the time to 3-5 days. Hf; suggested adding another section to include the vertical flags and. balloon or inflatable signs as a separate matter. Mr. Sizemore advised Item C references page 20 of 44 as well as occasional other areas throughout. i:he ordinance where there is mention of ground signs. This is to clari:Ey thai: pole signs have been eliminated from the allowable classification. and changed to monument signs. Mayor Maingot inquired if the he;~ht was 10 feet. Mr. Sizemore responded in t:he aff~.rmative. CC 06-11-OZ133 Commissioner Bundy said when revewirg site plans; be aware monument signs are going to present more concerns with visibility. Deputy Mayor Holt said his concern was the make. and material of the monument signs. Mr. Sizemore advised one of the standards in the design standard section requires the base of the sign be at least two-thirds the width of the face and the. sign be consistent with the style; color, material and finish of the principal buildings. The base of the sign must be split-block or brick. Commissioner Bundy inquired if they could use stone over a base. Mr. Sizemore said stone would be an acceptable material. Commissioner Anderson suggested adding stone to the list. Deputy Mayor Holt said when they were going through the signs they looked at what was available for signage. He stated the one company they chose for the Bradlee-McIntyre sign and. the Historic Civic Center had a monument sign and they could incorporate planters. He said the materials looked like stone or brick, but they were acrylic or foam that could be manipulated into whatever design desired. Once it was sprayed on it could be made to look like other materials such as stone or brick. He inquired if they were going to allow this type of material. Mr. Sizemore said the language would need to be included to allow alternative materials that duplicate the quality of brick or stone. He said the language now was "....decorative block, brick or stone" unless they decided to add additional materials. Commissioner Bundy said this alternative. material becomes a problem as it can be damaged when edging grass. Mr. Sizemore advised in the Design Guidebook EIFS was not an allowable building material. Commissioner Anderson said he would not have a problem with a cast concrete product that. looks and acts like the material. Commissioner Bundy said there was an artificial stone that has the mass and density of stone as well as the look. He stated if allowing alternative materials, foam would meet the standard of appearance; it would not meet the durability factor. Mayor Maingot said it would. be safe to go with a material they know will stand up. CC 06-11-07/134 Commissioner Anderson said the phrase or idea would be for it to be brick, split faced block, stone, or an alternative material that functions like ~~ one of those three. Mr. Drago said they were regulating the material for the base. Mr. Sizemore reviewed Item D and said this was replacing the references to the Downtown District with the generic term Mixed Use.. He said this would still apply to the Downtown District, but they would not be required to come back and change it if the commission adopts the previous transmitted Comprehensive :Plan ~.mendment. Mr. Sizemore advised Item l~ reduces the total allowable signage. Currently it is calculated based on the linear frontage of the building times two (2) for the square footage of allowable signage. It also sets a cap of 100 square feet. Commissioner Anderson said 100 square feet was small for some areas such as a plaza. He inquired if the~~ had math to backup that number. Mr. Sizemore said multiple tzni.t centers were regulated under a separate section and has a different standard. He advised. this was only for single buildings. He reviewed the standa~~d for multiple unit centers. ~-' Mr. Sizemore reviewed Item. F for Electronic Message Centers. He advised the language has been clarified by creating a separate section. The message. will not change moire thaai once a day. Commissioner Bundy said his only concern with changeable. message signs was with their changing every five seconds, and people driving by paying more attention to the sign.:EIe suggested making it more flexible, allowing changes every five minutes so they can take advantage of having a message sign. Mayor Maingot said once a day w;~s far too little and every five minutes was. far too often. Commissioner Anderson said it wouldn't take you five minutes to drive past the sign. He suggested changing somewhere between every one to five minutes. It was the consensus of the Commission to allow electronic messaging to change once. every five minutes. Mr. Sizemore said Item G was in regards to the height of monument signs limited to 10 feet. CC 06-11-07!1.3.5 Commissioner Anderson said Longwood did not have the same topography that Lake Mary had to deal with. •~ Mr. Sizemore said that. was part of the discussion of the Land Planning Agency and part of their recommendation. It was written from grade and they recommended the height be from 10 feet from the grade of the property where the sign is, or the crown of the road, whichever is liigher. Commissioner Bundy suggested the crown of the road or the average height of the site rather than the grade. He said he wouldn't, want someone to think of this as a loop hole and raise the grade. Mr. Sizemore asked if they would like to use the finished floor elevation of the building. Commissioner Bundy responded in the affirmative. He said this would put the sign in a scale to the building. Commissioner Anderson said that would seem to work well. JoAnne Rebello, 301 Loch Lomand•Avenue, inquired how this would address the plaza on County Road 427 where it is all below the road. Mayor Maingot said that was where you could have either the crown of the, road or the fimshed floor elevation. Mr. Sizemore said .Item H was window signs. He said there was an existing conflict. This was changed to window signs limited to 25% of the window. Language was added to require the signage not obstruct the visibility into the building at pedestrian height. Mayor Maingot inquired what would happen to the businesses not conforming to this once it goes into effect. He asked if they would be given a period of time to conform. Commissioner Bundy said merchandise stacked in the window and the whole idea was from a safety standpoint. Chief Jackson suggested the 25% in the window was excellent. He said stacking merchandise in the window was a different issue. He said they needed to identify the two areas and address each separately. He suggested creating a safety ordinance addressing the visibility inside the store. Deputy Mayor Holt suggested stopping. at 25% of the window. He said it would .serve the purpose of what they were after. Mr. Sizemore said it would need to be 25% per window. ~.~ CC 06-11-07/136 Commissioner Bundy said they could write another ordinance to deal with the interior visibility. Mr. Drago said if you treated the merchandise inside the window the same as signage, language could.be incorporated in this section. He said the problem with the old code vvas it being spread out in so many different places. Chief Jackson suggested the word:~ng be changed in such a way that no more than 25% of the visibility of the windows will be accepted, and this would include shelving or m~.erchandise. Commissioner Anderson said ther:, were two separate issues. One is how much signage can be allowed in a window. He said the 25% proposed at pedestrian height works. ThE: second issue is a public safety issue of the view through the windows being obstructed and -how to keep this portion of the window unobstructed,. He said this is not,primarily a signage issue, but a public safety issue and need: to be treated as a public safety issue. He declared he would be mare comfortable seeing this addressed separately. Mayor Maingot said. if wording could be found, it would be more effective ll having it in one place. I~ 1~i Commissioner Anderson reiterated these were two separate issues. Commissioner Bundy said h.e woL~ld not have a problem with prohibiting the stacking. of merchandise since it is labeled and could be construed as signage as it becomes a display. I~:e stated if they were going to address the public safety aspect, it does not matter whether it is a sign or a display if prohibiting visibility into the building. Commissioner Anderson said if they require a certain amount of the window for visibility they could address the public safety aspect. Mr. Sizemore said they could make the language compatible so it will match with public safety issues addressed in a later ordinance. Deputy Mayor Holt left the :meeting at 8:20 p.m. and returned at 8:22 p.m. Mr. Sizemore said they had already discussed Item I that changes the Historic District Overlay. Mr. Sizemore reviewed Item L for. multiple unit center signs. He said it l was in the formatting and design ;standards section on page 40. He said the name of the development or the pJ.aza will be on the sign and the names of the individual tenants will be placed there as well. CC 06••11-07/137 Commissioner Bundy suggested the developer be required to put up a pre- wired .sign with a blank panel so the tenant only needs to have the panel done with their name and logo. Mr. Sizemore said the entire last sentence could be deleted. He said this was covered under the requirements for having a master signage plan. Mr. Drago said they could take out the Public-Safety Department. Discussion was held regarding clearance standards. Mr. Sizemore said it may be applicable to the over-hang if the driveway went under it, the sign would be 17 feet. Commissioner Bundy said in that case i"t would be a building sign. Mr. Sizemore said he would inquire about the matter. Mr. Sizemore reviewed Item M. He said a closed business would have two weeks to take their sign down and replace it-with blank panels. Mayor Maingot referred to page 41, Item D. He said thi's referred only to the face of the sign. He inquired what happens in the case the whole sign was destroyed. ~ Mr. Sizemore said Sections C and D were related more to a business coming and going as opposed to a sign being damaged. He advised the language that regulates more of what Mayor Maingot was referring to would be Section 6.:7.6 A. Mayor Maingot said they would be required to present documentation within 3 0 days where they have ordered a replacement sign. Commissioner Anderson inquired if he was looking, for language so that when a catastrophe occurs they would have 30 days to start replacing the sign. Mayor Maingot.responded in the affirmative. Commissioner Bundy said that was covered under abatement. Commissioner Anderson said if they were left with half a sign, then the maintenance portion would apply. Mr. Sizemore advised Item M had previously been discussed. He said the last items were garage sale and open house signs. He reviewed the Land Planning Agency's recommendations regarding garage sale and open '~,/ house signs. He advised they recommended allowing the placement of CC 06-11-07/1.38 Open House.Real Estate Signs to be similar to that of Garage Sale Signs ~ with a more limited time restriction. They did not specify the time restriction. ~~ Mayor Maingot distributed his recommendations on real estate and garage sale signs. Deputy Mayor Holt inquired what off-premises signs referred to. Mayor Maingot advised off-premises would be signs in the public right- of-way. Commissioner Bundy said real estate signs placed on private property off- premises would still be illegal with this recommendation. He said staff's recommendation was to allow two off-premises signs located on private property. He inquired if the Mayor's-proposal was merging with staff's proposal. Mayor Maingot responded i1i the negative. Commissioner Bundy said this proposal was to replace the original 6.6.3 F with this proposed language. . Mayor Maingot responded in the affirmative. Commissioner Anderson inquired if he was looking for no more than two off-premise signs to be located either in the public right-of-way or on private property with the property owner's permission. Mayor Maingot responded in the affirmative. Commissioner Anderson said i~t does not say that as written. However, it could be clarified if that is the inte:r~tion. Mayor Maingot said this was brought forward in the hope to expedite this. area. Commissioner Bundy referred to Fart B, if a real estate company or individual requests an annua perrriit in the amount of $2,500 they can put up two signs for every propertythc;y represent in the City. He said with this being an annual permit, the si€ms could stay up for twelve (12) months if it takes that long for them to sell the house. Commissioner Anderson said there; should be some limitations. Mayor Maingot said this was in place of having a real estate agent come every time for a permit.. CC 06-11-07/139 Commissioner Bundy inquired if the intent was' to allow a sign to stay in the right-of--way for twelve (12) months. Mayor Maingot responded in the negative. He said his intent was for discussion and modification. Commissioner Anderson said, as wriften, this would allow someone to perpetually keep a sign in the right-of--way for a small sum of money. He stated the objection was that there should be some limitation. on how long signs can continue to be kept in the right-of-way. He said there needs to be a duration set onright-of--way signs for a specific parcel. Commissioner Bundy said he has a problem with allowing any commercial enterprise to advertise in the right-of--way. He said they may be setting precedence. He stated he did not have a problem allowing open house signs for a weekend. He said the signs would be there 24/7. Commissioner Anderson pointed out that paragraph C limited the offsite signs to weekends. He said.paragraph B and G go together. He stated there was a problem with a perpetual offsite sign. Commissioner Bundy reiterated having a problem allowing a business to advertise their product in the right-of--way. . _~ Mayor Maingot said he was looking at this in helping a homeowner sell their home. Commissioner Anderson said there were ways to get the message out. He stated he understands the objection to having the company name on the sign pointing, back to the neighborhood and having that sign up every single weekend. However, this was steering the direction of the discussion. He said. there could be ten different real estate companies with signs stating there was property in a neighborhood. He .stated he liked the proposal of one generic sign better. Commissioner Bundy said he did. not want to commercialize. the right-of- way. He stated it should be the property owner applying for the permit. He said he didn't have a problem with a generic sign,. except for under E that allows each permitted real estate company or individual to place a sign at the entrance: He reiterated there could be one generic Home for Sale sign with a directional arrow. He said he would have a problem with a specific realty sign that would. be advertising a particular company. Commissioner Anderson suggested backing away .from. every individual homeowner and/or broker placing a sign at the entrance of a subdivision and. go with a generic sign: He said he would posit that every subdivision J on every weekend would have the generic Home for Sale sign. He CC 06-11-07/140 confirmed that is why he said there were other tools to call attention to ' property. ~~. Commissioner Bundy said i:f they allow signs in the right-of-ways there will literally be signs all ove;r the City. He said they need some standardization. Mayor Maingot asked Commissioner Bundy what his recommendation would be. Commissioner Bundy said perhaps one weekend a month. He said he did not know what the ideal sohrtion would be. Commissioner Anderson said any of those proposals would result in permanent. signs at every major ar~.erial intersection or entrance. to a subdivision. Commissioner Bundy said his suggestion was allowing signage only one weekend per month. Commissioner Anderson said the way garage sale signs function differently was that the set of homes putting one up is substantially reduced so you would not see a garage sale sign everywhere. He stated " you would see a handful of them throughout the City and the locations )~ would change. Commissioner Bundy said many subdivisions hold annual or semi-annual community sales. Commissioner Anderson said he appreciates this proposal and they could probably find a way to make it workable. He stated he was open to listening; but he was not convinced this was going to serve the best interest of the City. Mayor Maingot said they were back to where you have the sign on the property for sale and they can approach their neighbor to put up a sign. Commissioner Bundy said he foresees a problem with enforceability. He stated they currentlyhave issues with signs being picked up continually. He said he would like to come up with some way, in a very limited scope, if only allowing one weekend a month. Deputy Mayor Holt said you have people who obey the laws and then those who don't care and put up.a cardboard sign knowing Codes Enforcement will pick it up. '~ Commissioner Anderson said they needed a way to solicit ideas on this mafter. CC 06- 1-07i 141 Commissioner Bundy said he would like to contact the Orlando Board of Realtors and see what their proposal would be. .Les Simmonds, 151 Sheridan Avenue, Broker in Longwood since 1985, said he had served on the Codes Enforcement Board for sometime and he lives in the City of Longwood. He stated he serves on the Board of Realtors and they were looking at ways they can resolve some of these issues in a universal manner. He said with technology today there were ways to market property. The one. area, as far as Real Estate signs, where they could be a little more lenient would be with Open House signs. He said these signs would only be up a couple of hours and would not be there permanently or overnight. Commissioner Anderson said that was a key point. They were not looking to put up a sign all weekend, only for a couple. of hours. He said that was a good point and there had to be ways to do this. He asked Mr. S'immonds if there was a way he could take the Commission's concerns to the Board. Mr. Simmonds said there needed to be a balance and it is hard to please everyone. He said he would definitely take these concerns back for discussion. He said lie lives here and works here and takes pride in the City. He stated he felt they could come to ,some solution. Deputy Mayor Holt suggested taking the area on 427 and 4-34 where the l~ Chevron was and placed a billboard there that states "Longwood Real ~J Estate for Sale or Rent" with a reader board. He said this would be iri one. location for everyone to read. He stated he would vote against putting any signs in the right-of--way. Commissioner Anderson suggested no offsite signs for Home. for Sale signs; but the Open House sign for three. hours makes sense. He would like to find a way to accommodate those people so they can get some advertisement in a way that is understood. If they follow the rules they are okay and their sign will not be pulled. He declared what shows him there is a problem was that his political signs were pulled, even though he knew where the right-of--way was. He said the average person does not. know where the right-of--way is and that is why they need to find a way to allow signs in the right-of--way. He stated he did not like the concept of the City creating official signs. However, this was one way for Codes Enforcement to know the signs are legitimate. Commissioner Bundy said in their discussion regarding this matter, another way they could help residents whether it is for Garage Sales, Homes for Sale, or Properties for Rent; would be to .have a page on the website to advertise. He stated this could be done for a nominal fee. He said they needed to f gure out a way that if they allow the signs in the right-of--way to limit them to something. that is manageable. ~ CC 06-11-07/142 Mayor Maingot said some type oil compromise was better than no ~ compromise. He said they could -try allowing signs one weekend a month. l~' Commissioner Bundy said he would like to try one weekend. a month and if necessary they could expand it. He said he was not adverse to the permitting process. Mr. Drago said in order to keep the sign issues moving along, was it the consensus of the Commission :For :Mr. Sizemore to make all the necessary changes reviewed this evening; and leave the real estate and garage sales as it is for the time being until the Commission decides which direction they want, to go. It was the consensus of the Commission for Mr. Sizemore to make the necessary changes as reviewed, excluding real estate and garage sales. . 3. AD.~OURN. Mayor Maingot adjourned fhe meeting at 9:40 p.m. ATTEST: ~- Sarah M. Miru;, CMC, City Clerk otin L. 1X~n~otlMavor CC 06-11-07/].43 .J~ This Page. Left Blank Intentionally. J~ ~, .' • i ~, ~~ CC 06-11-07/144