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CC03-12-13Min_WSLONGWOOD CITY COMMISSION Longwood City Commission Chambers 175 West Warren Avenue Longwood, Florida WORK SESSION MINUTES MARCH 12, 2013 6:00 P.M. Present: Mayor Brian D. Sackett Deputy Mayor John C. Maingot Commissioner Joe Durso Commissioner Bob Cortes Commissioner H.G. "Butch" Bundy Dan Langley, City Attorney Jon C. Williams, City Administrator Sarah M. Mirus, City Clerk Sheryl Bower, Director of Community Development 1. CALL TO ORDER. Mayor Sackett called the meeting to order at 6:01 p.m. 2. PRESENTATION ON THE WESTON PARK APARTMENTS DEVELOPMENT. Mr. Williams said this was a Work Session on the Weston Park Development Project, which was to become a centerpiece for the Transit Oriented Development (TOD). He said before turning it over to Ms. Bower and the Developer, he was going to first turn it over to the City Attorney, Mr. Dan Langley, as he was going to talk about the process and the format for the Work Session. Mr. Langley said the proposed development will come back before the City Commission and two (2) public hearings. He said the proposed development will likely have a Development Agreement, which will require public notice opportunity for the public and those who want to speak for or against the Project to have due process in addition to the Applicant. This process will be a quasi-judicial process, and because of that, they were applying existing rules to particular property or properties. He said they will need to make a decision in the future, not today but in the future, based on the evidence that they hear in the record at the public hearings. He said this Workshop was not a public hearing and it does not give opportunity for those who were for or against the Project. He stated the Applicant was here to fill them in on what they were proposing, and it CC 03-12-13/81 was also a forum for them to ask questions and to gain knowledge about what was being proposed. He noted since this was a Workshop and was not a public hearing, they were not here to approve or reject conditions of the development, he said he recommended they refrain from taking a position on the Project, for or against. He said, for instance, he suggested that neither of them take an affirmative, and will vote for this Project or will vote against this Project in this setting. He said he also suggests that the recording of this Workshop be incorporated into the record at a future public hearing. Anyone who suggests that the information that they gathered at this Work Session was outside the scope of the public hearing, that by virtue of incorporating the audio in what was said here tonight into the public hearing, then they will be able to consider this information that they learned today at the future public hearing. He said if they have any questions for him or need clarification on what he just said, let him know. He said they can ask questions, and can talk generally about the Project and express concerns or likes. But, he asked or recommended that they do not take an affirmative for or against the Project at this time. Mayor Sackett said in regard to the recording, the recording becomes available at the end of this meeting or at the public hearing date. Mr. Langley said it becomes available as soon as the City Clerk posts it. He said this was not an outside the public meeting. It was available to the public. He said the public can listen to this all they want. A quasi-judicial process requires special notice that was more than our typical meeting notices, such as posting on the website. Commissioner Bundy said so there was no overall for or against, but specific items, suggestions, concerns or things they like. He asked when the notices go out for the public hearings that will take place, will it reference this meeting in the notices, so the public knows this was part of it. He noted they just heard him say it will be part of it, but how was the public going to know; will it be when Ms. Mirus sends out the notice. He said will she say also, a part of this was the Minutes of the recording from this meeting, and will this meeting be referenced. Mr. Langley said typically, it would not be in the notice. He said what he would recommend was at the public hearing there will be an affirmative statement that the Workshop information and the recording from the Workshop was being incorporated into the record at that public hearing. Commissioner Bundy said that was okay, but somebody could then say they were at the public hearing and they referenced it, but they did not have a chance to study it or hear it before the public hearing. Mr. Langley said they could do that. CC 03-12-13/82 Mayor Sackett said he would prefer to have it linked into that so everyone was pre -educated as to what was going on. Commissioner Bundy said that would be good. Mayor Sackett said he thinks the way this was going to work was to have someone make a motion to suspend. Commissioner Bundy moved to suspend the rules. Seconded by Commissioner Durso and carried by a unanimous voice vote. Mayor Sackett said they will start with the presentations, and it will be open for any Commissioner to directly ask the questions they see relevant. Ms. Bower said this was the first plan of development they will be reviewing. She said the reason it was a plan of development was because this was part of the TOD. This was a direct result of the vision that they created; and as a plan of development, it was not reviewed in the same manner as they would their typical plan as of right now. There were not specific codes that have to be held to these criteria. It has to go above and beyond those. She said what she was going to do was briefly walk through some of the things that when they were actually going through and approving this they were going to have to be considering, so that you have these ideas in their head that this Project was not just about, did they meet a five (5') foot setback or did they meet this height requirement. She said it goes beyond that. Mayor Sackett asked her where they find this criteria. Ms. Bower answered they were all found in the Longwood Development Code (LDC) under Plan Development. Mayor Sackett said, so someone could access that as well. Ms. Bower responded in the affirmative. She reviewed a PowerPoint Presentation that outlined the planned development criteria and preliminary review for the Project. At the end of her presentation, she answered questions from the City Commission. Discussion was held regarding the development of a developer's agreement as referenced earlier in the Meeting by the City Attorney. Ms. Bower said that was part of the reason they were having this Meeting today was because they were not brought back into the process until it has gone through the Development Review Committee (DRC) and has gone through negotiations. So to get some direction and get some input from CC 03-12-13/83 them up front before a lot of money was spent on plans, and they have gotten into a direction where it was more difficult to make changes. Commissioner Bundy said basically, this was a Citizen Awareness and Participation Plan (CAPP) Meeting for the Commission. Ms. Bower responded in the affirmative. Mayor Sackett said that was exactly right. Mr. Williams said just for the Commission's understanding, Ms. Bower, Mr. Langley and he have already met with the developer initially, and started the discussions about the actual agreement itself. He said those discussions were ongoing. Jonathon Wolfe, Owner of Wendover Housing Partners, LLC, 1105 Kensington Park Drive, Altamonte Springs, Florida, 32714, thanked the Commission for this opportunity to speak to them this evening, and he thanked them for their spirit of cooperation and foresight and thinking and time they have invested over the past few years that they have begun to formulate thinking about what kind of campus they want to develop together. He said they ran around the Country looking at similar TOD's, and it taught them a lot. They have had the opportunity to share and bounce ideas off of all of them, and as he looks back, he said this has been one of the most encouraging and cooperative continuances of a development process of any community. He said as a result of that, the capital community has said "yes", they have committed to bringing $25 million into this community. It was in large part to all of them. He said they have challenged them, and continue to challenge them, to think better and to think outside the box, and bring Longwood to be the best community in Central Florida, from livability, walkability, and from a connection to the community. He said that was what they want to share tonight. He said, as always, they were looking forward to their continued questions and involvement, and helping them to better focus. He said the more questions, the more eyes they have, the better the collaborative product will be. He said he wanted to open this up by saying thank you. LarrAdams, Founding and Managing Partner of Associated Consulting International (ACi) Architects, Inc., 955 North Pennsylvania Avenue, Winter Park, Florida 32789-2463, said they were here on behalf of the developer, Mr. Wolfe, who just spoke. He stated they have a small introduction which was more to try to reconnect where this whole thing started to be sure they were remembering the guiding principles and things that got them to where they were today. He then outlined the Public Visioning Process that was included in the PowerPoint presentation entitled "Weston Park at Heritage Village". He said what they will see CC 03-12-13/84 was a slide of the things they intend to cover tonight, but again, this was not meant to be formal. It was just meant to be full of content. Mr. Wolfe and John Cunningham, Founding Partner/Design Partner of Associated Consulting International (AO) Architects, Inc., 955 North Pennsylvania Avenue, Winter Park, Florida 32789-2463, then outlined the Context portion of the PowerPoint presentation of where the Project was headed with the development and what was included in the development of the Project. Commissioner Durso left the meeting at 6:24 p.m. and returned at 6:26 p.m. Mr. Adams then outlined the Amenities and Branding portion of the PowerPoint presentation. He then outlined the possibilities for the water tower between the City of Longwood and the Developer. Mr. Wolfe outlined the urban design/architecture portion of the PowerPoint presentation. Mayor Sackett said he liked when Mr. Cunningham talked about place, and then Mr. Adams talked about adjectives, him being a teacher. He said they were talking about them making it "the place" instead of "a place". He said when they make it "the place", all these amenities they were talking about will be inclusive, so it was "the place", was that right. Mr. Adams responded in the affirmative. Deputy Mayor Maingot said noting where the bus drop off point was for people who will be using the Longwood Station; it would appear it was quite a distance away from the actual arrival and departure platform, necessitating a lot of walking in open space, unguarded from the sun and rain. He said regardless of being nicely landscaped and with trees and a nice path, etc., but what was going to happen to the people. He said not those who were residents there, but those who want to use the Station, and who were coming to and from there. He said he does not see any provision for that, other than having an umbrella. Mr. Wolfe said that was something that was given to them from Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT). They put it in that particular area, so when they came on board, they had pretty much drawn out where they wanted their drop-off point to be. Deputy Mayor Maingot said their drop-off point was one thing, but to get from their drop-off point to the platform was part of a design element. He said he does not think FDOT would have told them exactly how they have to route it. In other words, they were not really concerned about the CC 03-12-13/85 people who have to use an umbrella, or young kids who have to get off the bus or where they were parked to the platform. He said he thinks that presents quite a challenge. Mr. Adams said since they were all together in this in the beginning, FDOT was not willing to locate a private piece of property where the private developer would have the rights to develop, unless they felt it fit within the standards for walkability, for transit, and for where the people would be coming from. He said the best possible solution, without taking rights away from the private sector and to drive a higher value at the Station, was to create as many people as possible as close within walkable standards, and that was where that comes from. Deputy Mayor Maingot asked if they were having that same situation with Lake Mary and with Altamonte. He said he has not seen that. Mr. Adams responded in the affirmative. He said he happens to know the plan in Lake Mary. Deputy Mayor Maingot said he knows because they were involved in that, and that was why he was bringing it up. Mr. Adams asked if they were talking about how people get from where they were being dropped off. They were talking about from the buses, but they were also talking about people who were parking in the streets, and people who were coming from other locations that were parking in public areas, so anybody that comes to a public station does not have covered parking for everybody that comes there. Deputy Mayor Maingot said he was reflecting back on the original concept, which now for all intents and purposes, they have moved totally away from. He said if they did have that mixed -use concept, the idea was for people to go through the development, utilize the commercial activities on the ground floor, and get to and from the station. He said that was exactly what they projected from day one. Mr. Adams said in that timeframe, he was exactly right. Things do change in their world. Mr. Cunningham said, in an ideal setting from 2005 to 2006, it was with the trends nationally that they would move people through a mixed -use development, and on the ground floor they would have retail. Again, today vertical mixed -use projects were not being financed, and as the geometry of this site when the original concept was done, real unit plans, a real developer was not involved, and the economy was shattered and broken. He said as the economy has come back it has, they have noted in order to create a market for the economically viable financeable project. CC 03-12-13/86 Unfortunately, that courtyard has become very small, and the idea of having the public going through a private amenity courtyard that was already small, was not a viable option. Deputy Mayor Maingot asked what pertains to Lake Mary. Mr. Cunningham said Lake Mary was a separate Project across the street, and people will leave that building and cross the street by the apartment complex, whether it was raining, sunny, in a hurricane and windy, and go around another development, another building that was right at the platform, and go up the steps and come to the station. Mr. Adams said there was no mixed -use in Lake Mary because it was not possible. Mr. Wolfe said what the Commissioner's question was, if they get off the bus and it was raining like crazy and he has a bag, he would have to open up an umbrella and he would either have to stand under a garage covered space or the bus shelter before he makes a dash around the corner of the building to get to the platform, and they were absolutely correct, and there were more steps. He said the question was were those more steps so substantial that it either physically inhibits him or mentally inhibits him from coming to use the train, that he would have second thoughts on doing it. He said, as contrasted with, if the bus let him off right at the platform, or if he could park. There would be no situation where they were parking was right at the platform because they were going to be moved out regardless. So, he said if they were taking public transport, they do have to walk around a corner of the building. Mr. Cunningham said, to answer it a little further, there were terms that were used in TOD like pedestrian shed and walkability, and people will walk a quarter of a mile from a bus stop, from a parking garage, from their home to a shop, to a SunRail stop, to someone else's house without thinking twice about getting on a bicycle or taking a car. He said, as the crow flies, they were only 350 feet if they were able to walk through that building as it was proposed in 2006. He said approximately, the way it was planned now routing about 180 feet of additional walk for a total of 500 feet, which was well under the 1,320 feet, which was a quarter of a mile walk which was highly acceptable internationally in rain, snow, shine or sleet. He said so while there was one idea previously proposed within all physical, psychological, and behavioral place making, patterns were well within that. Commissioner Bundy said when one of them touches on a topic that others have a similar question, probably while they were still thinking in that mode to keep the dialog going, he said he has a concern on the buses. He said as he understood it, the buses are going to enter on Myrtle Street, drop CC 03-12-13/87 the people off, and come here on the map, and then what. They were going to exit and turn right. Mr. Adams responded in the affirmative. Commissioner Bundy said that was the whole problem with the Station initially. First, they were going to get to Palmetto Avenue and then where do they go. He said, see once they were off the Project, they were not their problem. They were their problem. He asked where do the buses go because if they turn left on Palmetto Avenue, they cannot turn left on Ronald Reagan Boulevard (County Road 427) off Palmetto Avenue. It was a right turn only. They would have to go either right and make a U- turn at Orange Avenue or, and this was what he was concerned with, was those bus drivers were going to turn right on Palmetto Avenue and come right down the middle of the residential area and make a right on Grant Street, so they can get back out to Ronald Reagan Boulevard (County Road 427). He said originally he thought they planned to loop around, so the buses could come out to Church Avenue to the traffic light. Mr. Adams said he thinks that was where they ended up, but it was a one- way street. The width of this road had to accommodate a bus. Commissioner Bundy said okay, but how were they going to make that left turn and asked to go back to the site plan. Mr. Adams said they would highly recommend a Workshop with FDOT. Commissioner Bundy said it was not reducing any building space and needed to be straightened out a little bit, rather than make it a forced right turn. It just needs to be straightened out and have it going in this direction and then pointed to the plan. Mr. Adams said all those things should have happened with MOT and the City way back. Commissioner Bundy said this did, and this turning radius did not happen with the MOT and the City. Mr. Adams said this flow moved around a lot, but in the final engineering if they all did not receive those drawings, he said he knows there were cities that have gone back to FDOT and said they did not show them that change. He said they might want to do that and have a discussion with them, and see they have made the change. Commissioner Bundy said he does not care whose fault it was. It may be MOT has done this, but he said he was trying to solve a solution because he was going to end up with sixty (60') foot buses running through a CC 03-12-13/88 residential neighborhood. He said they were going to go east on Palmetto Avenue to Grant Street because sooner or later they were going to figure out there was a traffic light at Grant Street and State Road 434 that they can get out and make either a left or right. Mr. Wolfe said it seems painlessly obvious just what he was saying. Just turn left. Commissioner Bundy said turn left, and to accommodate that, for their part as their role, was eliminate this and make it a much easier turn because then the buses can turn, and yes there was going to be congestion. Any transit at rush hour will be that way. Mr. Adams said it seems to him like they need to join together to approach the people that were in charge of that. Mayor Sackett asked Commissioner Bundy if he was doing this exclusively for buses. Commissioner Bundy responded in the negative. He said he does not care who, but buses should not be allowed to turn right because they were not going to be allowed to get out. 1 Commissioner Cortes suggested a small round -about. Commissioner Bundy said if this little section came straight down instead of curving out, it would be an option. Mr. Adams said what was amazing what he was saying was that the turn radius actually was taking property. Commissioner Bundy said this turn radius could actually come all the way out to here almost. Mr. Adams said that would be a question for the AECOM or the FDOT consultants. Commissioner Bundy said he still did not want them with the option. He pointed out a little further up, this was not just that they were going to have to turn right, part of the reason was that the buses were originally coming off of Ronald Reagan Boulevard (County Road 427). He said a bus was going to make this right, and this right, and this right. He said that was why they had them coming up here. He said even if they continued, that is almost an impossible left turn for a sixty (60') foot bus or even a forty (40') foot bus. If they were coming out on Church Avenue, they come to the intersection of Church Avenue and Ronald Reagan Boulevard (County Road 427), they can go right or left. The light CC 03-12-13/89 at Church Avenue has sensors and does not impede the flow unless there was a vehicle that wants to enter into Ronald Regan Boulevard (County Road 427). Mr. Adams said he thinks the County would also have a concern, and they were the ones also there back when the County Engineer at Seminole County Government, Mr. Jerry McCollum was part of the Project. He said they would like to unite as many people on this Project as they can. Mayor Sackett said that was understood. Commissioner Bundy said that was his concern when he saw the site plan for the circulation, because that was a part of the whole thing that they used and Mr. Ryan von Weller and Mr. Kevin Kroll, to move the Station in addition to be able to partner with them to move the Station down, because the Station originally was much further north. Ryan von Weller, Broker and Managing Partner of Orange Crown Companies, LLC, 1277 North Semoran Boulevard, Suite 116, Orlando, Florida 32804, said at one time they planned to cut at Palmetto Avenue and closing Orange Avenue. . Commissioner Cortes said they were going to open up Palmetto Avenue all the way through, no traffic light, and close it at Orange Avenue. Mr. von Weller said that was the last he had heard. Mayor Sackett said they needed a dialog. Commissioner Durso said it seems everyone here was in agreement, so let's go on. Mayor Sackett said let's move it forward. Commissioner Bundy said "yes", because it will affect their site plan and that was why he said he wanted to get into this because he had originally been under the impression that Longwood Avenue was going to be one (1) way completely down from here so that.traffic that came in on Ronald Reagan Boulevard (County Road 427) mostly would be private vehicles and would come down and have a straight shot in and would save some of the right-of-way necessary, versus making it two-way traffic there. Mayor Sackett asked to go on to question number two (2) from Deputy Mayor Maingot. CC 03-12-13/90 Deputy Mayor Maingot asked what their proposed cost of rental or lease was for the units A1, B1, and C1, and if they were talking upscale, he would like them to quantify that in dollars and cents. Mayor Sackett asked what would be the purpose. Deputy Mayor Maingot said to know what level of person they expect to be living there. Mayor Sackett said whatever a 700 square foot to 1,250 square foot price would bring in. Commissioner Durso asked what the going rate for a square foot was. He said there has got to be a market rate that you are looking at. Mr. Wolfe said there was a market rate. He said he give them the projected rates: For a one (1) bedroom, approximately $965. For a two (2) bedroom, approximately $1,300, and for a three (3) bedroom, approximately $1,450, and they were inclusive of all the amenities. These were rental prices, with a full staff, and there will be somebody there 24/7. He said they have the square footages and prices for almost every sub - market of multi -family communities. They have done a study of communities within five (5) miles, ten (10) miles, and they further bifurcated it to TOD communities that were planned. He said they looked at the Heathrow/Lake Mary market, and the downtown market and they went south of Downtown. He said they did reviews of all these communities to make sure that they were just a bit below their projected rents, correctly in line with square footages, and above amenities. So, give more for less to make it "the place," and the ranges go from approximately the $960 up to $1,500/$1,600 for the three (3) bedroom. They were well within the range because the square footages range from about 650, the smallest one (1) bedroom up to about 1,250 on the three (3) bedrooms. He said they were at 700 up to a little over 1,200 on square footage. Deputy Mayor Maingot asked if the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) was involved in financing this Project. Mr. Wolfe said responded in the negative and there was not any form of agency financing. Deputy Mayor Maingot said his concern was that they want a first class Project there, and therefore it will attract first class further developers in and around that Project. Mr. Wolfe said absolutely. He said their thought was that this community has to be the igniting spark, the genesis, for development all around within the area. Their partners were of an institutional nature and were looking at CC 03-12-13/91 this as what they consider a worldwide institutional product that they can compare to their product in any other metropolis throughout North America. -- Mayor Sackett said but it was not going to be like Lake Mary has a Panera, Altamonte has a Panera, and this was Longwood's Panera. This was something special and unique for Longwood and they were not mimicking that. Mr. Wolfe said this was "the place". Deputy Mayor Maingot asked if they have begun to talk with or pre- sumptuously motivate potential, commercial interest in and around your project. In other words, where were those folks other than the small area of meet and greet in their whole unit. He asked what of other commercial development, which was so necessary for them for place making as it were. How about Panera, etc., what feelers were out there. Mayor Sackett said he can interpret what he was trying to ask. He asked will the people under those roofs paying those rents bring in that commercial quick. Mr. Wolfe said not in of itself. Mayor Sackett asked what they need to do in of itself. Mr. Wolfe said they were bringing in 201 families. He calls it a family unit. The family unit could be one (1) or three (3). To answer his first question, have they spoken to commercial folks. His answer was "yes", they have. They showed him the door as quickly as he got in the door. He said they did that only because they were struggling. In many cases, they were contracting, and in many cases they were expanding. Where they were expanding were the places where they were the later generation development. The roof tops were there. Each one of outlets has its own numeric for how many roof tops, how many folks a day it was going to take before they come there. Mayor Sackett asked where do they find these peoples, and what cities has this happened in that they build a roof, and they come. Mr. Wolfe said they find them. Mayor Sackett asked where that happening in good numbers was. Mr. Wolfe said in good numbers today, let's take Central Florida. He said it was interesting. In Avalon Park, they had to build multi thousand roof tops before they could get their own village. He said if they look at the CC 03-12-13/92 east side, Waterford and all that was going on in those areas, the roof tops came in the thousands before the commercial, and retail then began to follow them out. He said once critical mass came, they started coming en mass. So he asked what the number was. He said he cannot quantify that today. They start, and if it continues, they will be knocking on their door collectively, saying okay, it was time to do something. He said they want to get out on Ronald Reagan Boulevard; they want to start redeveloping State Road 434. There were a lot of places for them to go, and they do. It was more roof tops coming in. Mayor Sackett said, Commissioner Bundy, this was a note to him with the commercial not being in place. Commissioner Bundy responded in the affirmative, and now that they were all here in a public meeting, he can touch on one (1) of the things they discussed in their private meeting. He said he understands the biggest failure for the Winter Springs Towne Center was that the commercial came, and the residential that was supposed to come never came. They designed a Project that looked inward to really anticipating the residential, the 1,500 units that were slated to go in just to the north of the Towne Center. When it never materialized, now they have a commercial area that was inaccessible from the exterior, or awkward to access from the exterior at best, and has not generated what they have done. He quoted the Publix Director of Development/Construction as saying it was the worst Publix they have in the district, and they would never put another one in that situation again. He said he understands the necessity for the roof tops or the residential element, but they know they were looking at approving a total concept, because what they were asking them to do was, for intents. and purposes, put $2 million worth of infrastructure and different things in their Project. He said what he was looking at was what the whole thing was going to look like for the commercial and the part of it they have set aside for future development. Are they going to see that at some point, and how do they ensure that they see that at some point because quite honestly, he would not invest $2 million worth of infrastructure in 200 apartments. He said that was what he has to look at from a City's point because they were here, but there may be a developer accumulating properties over here or looking at things over here, and he was going to be listening to what they do here and say, he wants that. They have to have repeatability in this so that as other developers come in, they have to be able to offer them what they offer you. Mr. Adams said he would like to comment on that someone mentioned Panera. He said they represent Panera from the design side. At the request of the City they called them, and thanks to Ms. Bower's help and others, they asked them to take a look at Longwood. He said he was sure they looked at it before, and maybe they talked with them before, but their CC 03-12-13/93 only interest was in enough acreage, and with every site they were able to get from the City, there was not enough acreage that was available. So there are a lot of things. He said also, for their Morningside Restaurant Lifestyles, their only interest would be Ronald Reagan Boulevard (County Road 427). They were not interested in transit stations. He said Lake Mary was building their Project and investing about the same amount of money to get a similar yield because they know if they don't, nothing will probably happen for a while. It was a function of how do they pay for land and develop stormwater, or do they want holes dug. It was a financial balance, and the question was were they investing it for a $2 million project or a $5 million project, or was it a $2 million for a $25 million project that projects a reason that it was first class. He said it has to become a change. It cannot be where they were just doing the same old thing and building something low quality. Mr. Wolfe said they have a slide that looks at what Downtown was doing, which he said was certainly in excess of half a billion dollars. Mr. Adams said they all want things, all the communities, whether they were in Orlando, Longwood or Charlotte. It was not just ridership that they were worried about, it was about creating a voice and the wise investment of limited resources that cities and redevelopments have, so it was both sides. He said this was the end of January of this year, a big article. He said Downtown Orlando does not have a retail place. There was nothing that constitutes retail, and they were a massive amount of development. The problem was that they do not have the roof tops. Even though they have roof tops and all of that, and they cannot get it. He said they did not write this. It came right out of the article he showed them. It says they can sanitize retail to be successful, so what can happen was, how do they take what they do make on a good investment, which the idea was to make something real, and then what that gives them. How do they then create something that allows other things to happen. Mr. Adams said the other thing was Pathways to Success that people were using. He said he was sure they all have heard about Create a Village. That was a billion dollar project in the City of Orlando. It was the old Arena, the original Arena. He said Creative Village has gone through the MPB approval. That was what they do for ground floor uses today because it was based on the same problem they were having, which was that no ground floor activity was important to all things. However, there may not be sufficient demand for such uses at the time of construction. Therefore, active use was defined as a list of one through five. He said the list of one through five was education, commercial, residential on the ground floor and retail. He said what they were saying was there was a flexibility they build in to how they regulate this idea to do what they were saying, so they just do not let everybody build residential. CC 03-12-13/94 Commissioner Durso said he understands a lot of the concept behind roof top commercial and businesses were only go where people exist, etc. They have spent a lot of time talking about transportation, specifically mass transit, and how they were going to partner with Lynx, about partnership with a few other cities, etc. He said his concern with regard to retail was that it seems like there was a bit of a lack of focus on driving retail. He said when they say that roof tops drive business; roof tops do not drive business alone. Presumably, those businesses count how many people have moved into the area. They do traffic studies and look at general census information, etc. and asked if that was a fair statement. Mr. Wolfe responded in the affirmative. Commissioner Durso said so, it was not just that they built a thousand homes, because if the thousand homes were empty, Publix, Panera, whoever, were not coming. He said his desire long-term would be that while they were doing this, they strike while the iron was hot, and they push commercial in some way, shape, or form. He said because Longwood does not really have the potential to develop a lot more by way of roof tops. Everything with them was redevelopment. He said this whole area here was likely to be redeveloped completely. He said Walgreen's will survive, and a lot of these other places in here will likely be bought out by potentially some of the people in their room, at some point to be redeveloped into commercial space. He said some of this stuff will be bought out, parcels will be combined, and that acre and one half will suddenly be available for Panera. He said he understands how that was going to go. He said he feels like right now there was not enough focus on it, and what he genuinely fears was that they will build this place, and it was going to be beautiful, he has no doubt in his mind, and it was going to be empty. He said if it was empty, they were going to have a real tough time, even with competitive rent. He feels they were going to have a tough time bringing people in because there was nothing to do. He said once the people realize there was nothing to do, they were not going to want to rent, etc. He said it was kind of a vicious cycle, and he knows it was kind of like the chicken and the egg type deal, and he said he understands the predicament that they all face with some of these things, but he would like someone to give him some comfort about the goal of the retail side of this. He said that was the one thing, and they all know he has had private meetings with almost everyone in the room, and he was a big proponent of this and of investing in the investment infrastructure in the area because he thinks long-term that was what they were going to need so they might as well do it now while the getting was good. He thinks it was going to be a beautiful Project, and he thinks that long-term the Historic District will become more appealing and people will move in. But, the whole roof top drives. commercial thing really concerns him. CC 03-12-13/95 Mr. Wolfe said to expand his thinking for a moment to roof tops does at the end of the day drive the retail. In part, what drives the retail was the community and the environment for coming in. He said what they were doing was putting up a sign saying collectively and it sounds trite, but Longwood was open for business. Come on in. They were ready to do some things, and they were ready to make some changes and some investments, and they were ready to grow this. He said for the 60,000 people that were traveling up and down State Road 434 that were commuting in ten (10) miles, maybe they ought to think about living. He said one of the things they have learned about multi -family over the years, and they do a lot of extensive marketing and studies back and forth, the number one (1) driver for people to rent an apartment was proximity to their work. People want to be within a few miles of work. The train will expand that because that allows people to move around. It allows people to come in for education and all the elements that they have all studied for years in support of bringing the train, so it opens up a whole series of options. But at the end of the day, a commercial person will be coming here because they know that there were things going on, and that the town has an open for business sign, and they were supportive. They were going to find a way to make it happen, as contrasted with, was it worth the aggravation. Should they take the financial risk. He said as many of them know from conversations they have had, he partially developed Heathrow over the last fifteen (15) years and have been living there for over twenty (20) years. He said they had no retail when they first opened up. They had a Publix that closed and a Gooding's that closed. Commissioner Durso said Winter Springs gets a Publix and it was the worst in the District, and Heathrow gets a Publix, and it closes, why did these guys come here. Mayor Sackett said it was the gold cards. Mr. Wolfe said the interesting thing was he said to some folks who built some what he thinks were above average, magnificent, small retail strips. They built several throughout Central Florida. He said to them on several occasions, why don't they come with him to Longwood, and they said, not yet. He asked them what would it take to get them there, and they just looked at him and said, Mr. Wolfe, not yet. He said apart from them reaching out to them, and they see these people at various conferences, he sits on a real estate board of a graduate program at the University of Florida, and they just had a yearly economic conference. They were talking about sectors, and which ones were positive and where investment capital was going and fleeing from. He said investment capital was fleeing from small time retail. They were struggling and having a terrible time, and there was a lot of dark space. He said, with that, there were some chains that were starting to grow. They have quotas of new storage they have to put up. They have real estate people that do nothing but CC 03-12-13/96 j circle through demographic data, looking at traffic pattern changes, and looking where growth was going on, and then knocking on doors. He said they will find a few short years that people will start to knock on their door and say, I represent so and so corporation, and I need to find a location in their town. Things were not going to be the same when they start construction in 2014 on Interstate-4, and he thinks they all know that. It was going to set some patterns that none of them today fully understand that were going to be shifting things east and west. People were not willing to sit two (2) hours going ten (10) miles. That will cause people to come knock on their door. Commissioner Bundy said this was the piggy back on what Commissioner Durso said, and that was a concern of his too. He said let me explain something. Basically, where they were going was an undeveloped track. There were no roof tops there and were adding residents. He said all of them around here see that, and he said he sees nothing but roof tops. It was going to be difficult to add significant amounts of people. They were what they have got. They were 13,800 people, according to the last census reports, and they were going to add maybe 350 people. He said that wasn't going to tip Panera Bread to come in. If someone else came over here and did exactly what they were doing, that would be 700 people total. He said that isn't enough to tip it, so one of their concerns was when they say roof tops draw people, Commissioner Durso expressed it, it was not all that drives people. He said they have areas that the only way anything �— was going to happen was through redevelopment, for the most part. They have very few large tracts of land that were left. He said what they have to make sure of, because this was the centerpiece property of the TOD and this was the first Project they were doing under the TOD, they have to make sure because they have a responsibility to the people to provide the infrastructure, that they were doing the right thing. He said they have worked with Orange Crown for many, many years on this, and they have been very tireless, not just what they were doing in Longwood, but to help ensure that SunRail became a reality. He said they also have a responsibility to make sure that this was the best it can be, because this was the centerpiece. He said they were still going to be faced with everything else around it, so he said he does not think any of them were against the Project. He said one of the things they were struggling with was they have to make sure they get it right, because if they get it wrong, they have some money invested in it and eventually, it may take them longer to get their money back out of it and to get your return on their investment initially. But, if they get it wrong, they screw this whole City for fifty (50) years. He said if they get it right, they make this deposit, so there was a lot of responsibility. He said when they look at it, this area directly up here was in the Historic District and the buildings were on the National Register. He said, that was not to say things cannot be done around them. With an imaginative architect who knows history, things could be done on those properties. What people were looking for was not CC 03-12-13/97 something here, as far as a Panera Bread or something like that. But, what people would be looking for here were people that cater to the transit community, such as a dry cleaner, a coffee or sandwich shop, or a place to grab something before they get on the train or after they get off. They were looking for those types of service businesses. He said he was never looking for Panera Bread to come in even in the original iteration of the Project where it was going to be a vertical mixed use. He said what he did envision and what he was not seeing was, people come who live in Sweetwater and have a half a million dollar house, people in The Springs, or people in Winter Springs. He said what they were looking for was once these people get off the train, instead of rushing to their car in this lot or in this lot, something to slow them down and spend some money and time here. He said small businesses, and he knows that was hard to get financed, but if they have a dry cleaner that has been around for twenty (20) years, he can get financing if he wanted to build in anew location. There were ways to do it, and what they were looking at was not just this, but the future development here and also in this section. When, and what were the plans for Orange Crown and them to do for what they already own. Mr. Wolfe said he wanted to make a couple of points. They raised a great point of if there were folks saying the demand was there, the smart business guys will recognize that. The opportunity by having the infrastructure ready for it, so when someone does come in, that can easily be developed. He said they have done that. That was the thoughtfulness that all of them have put in. Commissioner Bundy said but for the infrastructure they were putting in, what was the percentage of it that was going to be utilized by this Project here. Mr. Wolfe said they were the only community that has the ability to build structure parking. He said they were the only community that has the ability to take retention areas that MOT was building and turn those into any use. He said they have thought through all of those things, so they have provided the ability that, when someone comes knocking on the door, they can say yes, they can accommodate that because they have the infrastructure that they were doing right now. He said if someone came knocking and they did not have the infrastructure, then there was no way. Commissioner Bundy said but they would have to spend another two (2) million dollars for a similar project, or almost that. Mr. Wolfe responded in the negative and stated they would not. CC 03-12-13/98 Commissioner Bundy asked the Administrator, he wanted to know what was the capacity of what their game plan was, and what funds do they have available to do this that would not be utilized by this Project. Mr. Williams said he thinks the regional stormwater system was something that they were putting in for that. He said they have targeted $850,000 for this. He said until final plans were submitted and they know total amount of impervious, but roughly, they were looking at probably looking at about an eighty (80%) percent, so there will be about twenty (20%) percent available of what they build. Commissioner Bundy said the sewer expansion, was that going to be able to handle all the redevelopment. He was hoping the answer to that was "yes". Mr. Williams said it depends on where they were running the sewer from. Originally, it was planned they would come off State Road 434 and all the way down to Myrtle Street and Church Avenue. He thinks that may have changed location, and he said he does not know specifically the design on that, but there will be some opportunities for some other folks to pick out, but he does not know the percentage of what that was at this time. Commissioner Bundy said understand, they were making a two (2) million dollar investment in their Project. Well, $1.6 million, if they take eighty (80%) percent that was the rule of thumb, $1.6 million. He said there were concerns. Commissioner Cortes said he has listened to all the valid points, and he said he agrees. He said he understands about part of the reason for changing the mixed -use back to apartments was financing. He asked on the ground floor level was there any way to possibly, after it was completed, to convert some of the ground units to retail if the need arises. He said let them say they were building roof tops, and they have rented out the space, and once they have all rented out they decide they have an opportunity because they have some people that want to do commercial on the ground floor. He asked was there a way of accommodating that somehow in the plans without it being a restaurant. He said since they were already putting over here their gym and some other features of a foyer, something around here that can be not necessarily now because they cannot delineate it as a financing issue, but in the future can it be converted into somewhat of a retail by knocking down some walls, as a way in the future to say they have locked it down completely for a home because there was an opportunity for someone with retail space to capitalize on it, such as a dry cleaner or small sandwich shop, and that was part of the Project that can be used for more rent. CC 03-12-13/99 Mr. Wolfe said to do it in the building was not feasible or even advisable. He said so where were the opportunities to do it. He said they currently have space all along Ronald Reagan Boulevard. When those demands come up, the first place that people were going to look was Ronald Reagan Boulevard for visibility. He said the second place would be in the interior. There were lands right now, and some that Orange Crown own. They were in constant chatting with other folks about different kinds of commercial uses. He said they went out three (3) years ago, and they toured and put together a review of all multi -family at light rail throughout the United States. In every single location, when they built small amounts of retail, it went broke, and it was dark. The multi -family outperformed the rest of the City, and the retail went broke. He said they kept asking why because logically, it doesn't seem right. When they get off the train, they want to run into the dry cleaner or pick up a cup of coffee, and no one was able to give a coherent response to it. As a consequence of that, Wall Street finally said this will not do for an excuse because they were getting smacked on it, so don't build the building, but were there other opportunities around it to do it. The answer was there were plenty of opportunities. There were lands that Orange Crown currently owns, which have no specific use in mind today, and they have been talking with everything, from educational institutions to physicians' offices, to small retail, so all sorts of varied mixed -use to look at. He said to his point, when someone does come banging on the door and saying he wants to put something in, there were opportunities to do that. Commissioner Cortes said this question may be for Ms. Bower, just to get more of an understanding and the purpose of the Work Shop, under the Code, something like this right now would be allowed as long as everything was followed to the Code as far as open space and everything they had on that first slide, correct. Ms. Bower said the thing was, this was a single -use development, and it was a planned development, so it was supposed to go above and beyond the basics of the Code. It was supposed to provide for all those things she mentioned at the beginning and meet the criteria. Commissioner Cortes said so as this stands right now, would it or would it not meet the Code currently with just this. Ms. Bower said one (1) of her concerns was that they always have been concerned about capturing this foot traffic. She said maybe they cannot capture it here, but what were they providing for them so that in the future if this retail does come, how they were going to capture it. How have they thought about this, and where can they direct people who were coming from the parking lots to access retail that might happen on the properties further down on Church Avenue. She asked how was this Project going to interact with the Train Station. She said they can put retail on Ronald CC 03-12-13/100 Reagan Boulevard, but what about their symbiotic relationship with the centers they have created between this Project and the Train Station. She said that was one of the things they will be looking at. Mayor Sackett said short of a kiosk type thing. Ms. Bower said she thinks that was a missed opportunity. They cannot do retail, but could they have done a little more public space and create a place, and she cannot tell from the plans how big this space was. Was it big enough to actually accommodate people sitting there or creating some kind of synergy, waiting for the train and sitting there having their coffee. Commissioner Cortes said, so basically let's say with the retail off the table for whatever as it stands with the single -use, it would not be falling into the Code on what they developed for the transit village without being modified or exempted. Ms. Bower said they were going to have to look at all this different criteria and determine to the extent that it needs it, and then bring it to them to determine whether or not you feel this Project was a Project that meets some vision and the criteria they laid out. Commissioner Cortes said to not just bring it to them, but also bring it to them as a way of looking for some compromises to meet everything within l.._ the Code. He said at the end of the day, it was not so much what these gentlemen say, but they all have to adhere as much as possible to what has been written in Code. Mr. Langley said he wanted to add that he thinks it was too early for her to answer that question. She does not have all that information or a complete set of docs and all the plans for it. Commissioner Cortes said he was not saying one way or the other. He was just looking at the interpretive Code, based on what they have got. Ms. Bower said she understands horizontal mixed -use, but how does this Project interact with presumed horizontal mixed -use that was coming down the pipe. Commissioner Bundy said he thinks her concern was that even if Orange Crown owns property here, and there was this Project going to be an impediment to the flow of it to this area, it has to interact with the Project. Mr. von Weller said to give them a quick answer, the Projects to the south and east, south of that was a parking lot for the FDOT. He said there was a parking lot due south as well. People can drive up Myrtle Street and park there, but inherently, they cannot walk through the water tower, so CC 03-12-13/101 they were going to have to walk right by that property to get to wherever they were going. He said they believe that was a great access point with great visibility. Mayor Sackett said, and, it was not an impediment. Commissioner Bundy said he thinks that was the concern, how it interacts with the overall. He said the other thing was the connectivity and it fits in with the plan. He said AO was involved with the original overall visioning strategy with TOD, and then they further refined that with AECOM, but they have a fifty (50') foot right of way there that they were going to have to accommodate on street parking, landscaping, travel lanes, and sidewalks on both sides. He said they cannot do that in fifty (50') feet. If they build in too close there, it does not leave enough leeway to do that, which they have in their conceptual plans that encompass that. He said a three and one half (3%') foot sidewalk with a build in right up against it and travel rights. They were dealing with a limited amount of space on that. He said he thinks the whole thing has to fit within the vision of it. He said this Project was part of a whole vision, and that was what they were trying to see how it fits in. Ms. Bower said another concern was they do not even know what properties actually end up in the Project at this point, so how was that going to change the Project if properties aren't currently under ownership with these people or were not purchased, and the Project has to move in a different direction. Mr. Adams said he knows they have been very patient, but he would like to comment on a couple things, because right now they were involved with five (5) SunRail communities on their side, and they have been having the same conversations and same concerns. He said they all know the markets due fluctuate and change. He said he thinks the general comments everyone agrees with. He said what was missing were the details, and it was not that businesses follow roof tops, it was what was in the wallets of what was in the roof tops. That was exactly what this was about, and it was about building a stronger base to generate the beginning points of the right places. He said the other aspect of it was that maybe the other cities were wrong, really wrong. He said what he thinks they have the opportunity to do was to start doing "the plan" without just looking at this property. He said don't forget, the garage was being proposed not only for this Project, but it will 1. Additional levels for the County. It will equal all the surface parking lots that were currently shown. So, they have a partner sitting there trying to figure out how to jointly work with them. He said all the parking would be in the garage at additional levels and was enough to handle all the surface parking lot that the public currently shows there that County will inherit. CC 03-12-13/102 Commissioner Cortes left the meeting at 7:45 p.m. and returned at 7:46 p.m. Commissioner Bundy asked if the County has agreed to that. Mr. Adams responded in the affirmative. He stated that was why they were investing and they voted five -to -zero (5-0) in favor. Mr. Williams said they have not formalized the agreement there yet. Mr. Adams said nobody would do that and noted they have been working together. Deputy Mayor Maingot asked what was there that was going to tell the people that they were approaching the Longwood Station and what was there within the overall structure of what they were developing. He said when he looked back at the original concept, it had uniqueness about it, not what they showed them this evening. It does not have a specialty in its own area. He said he looked at some stuff they were working on recently for Casselberry. He said that has uniqueness about it. He said he does not see that in what was presented this evening. He said something, whether it was a lack of a frontal public space element combination, or whatever, but somehow, it doesn't resonate with him. Mr. Adams said to help him on this from the standpoint of what was going on in Casselberry, they were investing and paying for all of that. He asked was he talking about the architecture or the water. Deputy Mayor Maingot said it was the whole thing. Mr. Adams said they were paying for all of that. Deputy Mayor Maingot said their budget was probably a whole lot more than they have. Mr. Adams responded, to the negative. Deputy Mayor Maingot said there were 30,000 people there and their base was much larger than theirs. He said when they were coming to the Longwood Station on the train, he liked the water tower with a light upon it idea. He asked what was there in the Project that was in itself going to be unique, so they can say that was our Station. Mr. Cunningham said they talked about on the left hand side was an architectural element that was a combination of glass and brick, and there was an element at the very top that will glow at night. It was a very strong anchoring corner. He said they have not had the chance to develop the CC 03-12-13/103 other elevations, but at the northwest corner there will be something probably of similar character. When they look at the overall composition, it was really meant to look like row houses, so it was a more urban type of -- housing in Longwood. It was representative of a different district. They have different districts in communities, and to that end, it was meant to contrast and be vibrant and progressive, and they were not just that little historic village. He said when they walk from place -to -place, there were different neighborhoods. If they think of Savannah, they can walk from square -to -square and find each square was different because one was slate; one was brick, and one was gravel, and one has a statue of Lafayette, and the style and architecture in the different squares was distinctly different. When they track that and study it, there were clear and distinct patterns in each of the square parks, the point being, this was representative of the future. It was a timeless and elegant architecture that was not like their Historic District. He said their concern was if they do something that was exactly like their Historic District, it was going to be contrived and thematic and more Disneyesque at this point because their Historic District was unique. The Historic District can be infilled gently and beautifully and carefully, but the outside has the opportunity to be a bit different. He said they were saying that Longwood was a community that was vibrant and forward thinking. The people that were going to rent in a facility like this, he said he thinks there are three (3) people in the audience that were of age that would rent here because it was not for any of them. He said maybe Commissioner Durso, but they look at what was being done around the country, and it was not about trends. It was about lifestyle and where things were going and maintaining a progressive way of thinking. He said when the train pulls up and they see something that was rich and vibrant and the color and the massing and the texture and the materials were going to have a richness to them, and will upgrade. When they drive down US Highway 17-92 and Ronald Reagan Boulevard, it was mind numbing. There were very few projects, and like they say, they have a Panera and lucky if they get an Applebee's. What kind of thinking was that, so this would be the opportunity to have something that has this presence about it. He said and where was the retail going to be or where was the commercial going to be, when they look at that site plan from the north spine to the south from this Project down to Walgreen's, it was 900 feet approximately. Walgreen's was going to be very happy about it for this short-term, because Walgreen's has retooled itself, and they do have groceries and a little bit of everything. They were going to get people who will walk from there or ride their bike there and then, they were going to start to see little 2,000 and 4,000 square foot two (2) story buildings get built on some of those smaller parcels that people have cobbled together. They were going to start to see those doctor's offices and someone will put in a nail salon and a hair stylist place. He said those things were going to happen slowly. He said pre -World War II communities like Edgewater or Winter Park or College Park, they were lucky enough to have those little shops there. He thinks where they see some real retail development CC 03-12-13/104 was in the Historic District, but in that area on Church Avenue between Ronald Reagan Boulevard and the train tracks in those two (2) little areas that have existing buildings. Those were prime for becoming little restaurants or little shops or a dry cleaner. Things take a while, and they have every reason to question and be concerned. He said a professor of his in one of the hardest courses he ever took, it was pass/fail, wrote on the chalkboard the first day, "Start....the rest was easy". Commissioner Bundy said he was third generation construction business, and he said they have a unique situation here in the Historic District, and there needs to be a boundary. He said one of the very first major projects you did here is with our Historic Codes, and one of the things he said at that time was a community that was developed over periods, generally boom and bust periods. Things boom and a lot of stuff gets built. Things go down and nothing gets built. By the time the economy comes back and things were getting built, the styles have changed. He said they were going from an extremely well adapted Train Station fagade in here, to this. He said one of his favorite buildings here in town was La Prensa, because it was eclectic and interesting. He also said he would also love for Architect-tonica to design a project in Longwood, but not in the Historic District. He said he thinks that this was too much of juxtaposition. It was almost like here was the Historic District, and here was everything else. From an architectural standpoint, when they built the Community Building, they wanted it to blend into the District, but not to copy anything in the District. They do not want to copy anything, especially a Project that was directly adjacent to it. He said he would like to see some more elements in it that, while not necessarily a copy of things, but make a softer transition. He said he was able to visualize that in his mind because he deals with blueprints and conceptual drawings all the time, and he said it was a pretty steep transition to make. He said there were things they will need to work on, and they will work with staff, but from an overall concept, that was one of the biggest things. Mayor Sackett said when Mr. Williams was talking; he said they did not want to be like Celebration. Commissioner Bundy said he does not want Frank Lloyd Wright right next to the Bradley -McIntyre. Mayor Sackett said they want it to work in reference to the history, but they also want it to be something that makes them "the puce." He said that was what they were tasked with, and they appreciate that. Commissioner Durso said he does not have as much heartbumabout the design here, because if they look at what they have done in Winter Park, there were a lot of very historic buildings there, and there was a lot of new development in new apartments that were similar in that nature, and they CC 03-12-13/105 blend fairly well. He said that was not so extreme that it was going to kill that Historic District. He stated you know what kills the Historic District, the crappy properties that they have over there right now. He said as far as he was concerned, this type of stuff blends fairly well because he has seen it in College Park and Winter Park, where they have a row of historic restaurants and retail and these places that have been remodeled. It works. Mr. Langley asked about the proposed use of right -of- way aerial space in these concept plans that look familiar to a foot bridge and was that elevation showing actual apartments above Myrtle Street. Mr. Adams asked him if he was concerned if the right was there to do that. Mr. Langley said that can be addressed, but have they checked the site distance issues with that intersection of Church Avenue and Myrtle Street to see if that would create a visual problem with traffic coming in and out of that intersection. Mr. Cunningham said this was the visual triangle, and they will look at that and see. Commissioner Cortes said he wanted to bring up about public safety regarding the garage and the building and the lighting. He said having several levels and crossovers, make sure about those issues. Mr. Williams said they would continue to work with the developer and finalizing the development to bring back to the Commission for their action and consideration. Mayor Sackett complimented the group on a class act and thanked all of them. 3. ADJOURN. Mayor Sackett adjourned the meeting at 8:03 p.m. Brian D. Sackett, Ma ATTEST: Sarah M. Mirus, MMC, MBA, City Clerk CC 03-12-13/106